Guillaume: Hello everyone, Guillaume Le Tual here, host of the Ecommerce Wizards Podcast where I feature leaders in e-commerce and business. So today’s guest is Michael Rubino, who’s a Lead UX Designer at Adobe. So I am very happy to have an Adobe employee with me here today. So, welcome Michael.
Michael: Yeah, thanks for having me Guillaume. Glad to be here.
Guillaume: Michael is in charge of the Adobe Commerce or formerly named Magento platform. Especially, for the developers’ experience, this episode should be very interesting for Magento developers and everybody involved in the Magento community. I think we can have some very interesting discussions today. I don’t know exactly what we’ll talk about, but there’s a wealth of knowledge here with Michael.
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So Michael, can you please tell us a little bit about yourself and about your role at Adobe?
Michael: Yeah, sure. I’ve been doing UX design for over a decade now. I started my career in New York, and worked for some startups. So I was kind of involved in the New York City startup scene back in the early 2010s, or up at the 2008 period. Then about eight years ago I decided to move down to Houston, Texas, and got my first break into some enterprise software, and then eventually made my way to Magento. About four and a half years ago, I started at Magento. It was a fast growing startup company on the verge of being like a nice mid sized company. So it was like a very mature startup, with great culture, a lot of freedom, a lot of ‘pull yourself up by your bootstraps’ mentality. If you wanted to try something, an initiative, some new program, some new way of doing things, everyone is super supportive. They’ll go, “Hey, just go give it a try”.
I worked at Magento for about a year until the acquisition happened. So I got to see what Magento was like before acquisition, when it was kind of in growth mode to the acquisition, where a lot of us were like, “What the heck is going to happen?” So I guess it’s three years plus after the acquisition, where I’d say we’re more in integration mode than anything else. Growth mode is certainly different from being part of this bigger ecosystem. Now, with this bigger suite of products, how do we leverage the resources we have and become a good powerful citizen amongst this other suite of products and integrate with them and work together? And so that’s kind of where we’re at. It’s been a very cool transition to be a part of, and I’ve learned a ton through it.
I would say the culture hasn’t changed much, which is great. I mean, when I was interviewing for Magento, I was kind of interviewing them as much as they were interviewing me around culture. This was something that was very important to me, particularly at the time when I was looking for work, it still is, of course. I think one of the things that Adobe told us was, they were attracted to Magento because of the great culture we had. It sounds nice, but I had to see it for myself, and it’s true. I mean, working with all the folks at Adobe, it’s the same culture, they prioritize the same values, and so it’s just been great. Now it’s just a quick shift of pivots and growth mode, from a smaller company, more nimble and agile to be part of a bigger thing.
We still pivot fairly quickly, but it’s not all about how fast we can grow Magento or Adobe Commerce, it’s about how we provide value to the larger Adobe Experience Cloud. You’ll probably hear me throughout our chat here today, Adobe has three main clouds. They have Creative Cloud, which everyone knows and loves, it’s like their bell cow. Then you have Document Cloud, Adobe PDF, Adobe Sign, all that great stuff. Then you have Experience Cloud, sometimes you’ll hear me call it probably digital experience, or DX. That’s where Adobe Commerce lives. It lives alongside other tools like Adobe Experience Manager, campaign target Marketo, which was acquired around the same time as Magento. They all believe in, how do we empower marketers and merchants to sell and market their products? So a little bit more of a business focus. And this is kind of where I found my home.
When I started at Magento, one of my first projects was EQP 2.0, which stands for Extension Quality Program that was being revamped at the time. I joined in on that project and started talking to developers right off the bat. In this case, it was more extension developers, how do they submit their extensions to be sold on our Marketplace? From there, I moved over to working on our cloud initiative. So I worked on some things like our onboarding UI and Cloud Offering. Then that evolved into focusing on the developer experience a bit more holistically with commerce, but also trying to focus on developer experience across the DX or this Adobe Experience cloud suite of products. And so it was kind of a new thing for me.
Guillaume: Can you tell us more about that?
Michael: Well, from my perspective I’m trying to start with commerce and AEM, there’s a natural partnership there. AEM is a best in class tool for managing content and making a great marketing site, building out your brand, but it lacks the e-commerce part. This is where, of course Magento comes into play nicely, they complement each other really well. So we’re already starting to see some sites that take advantage of both of these technologies and there’s been some connectors made and some interesting ways of having these two systems communicate, that we’ve stumbled upon.
They’re fantastic, but now we want to kind of formalize that workstream a bit and be more intentional about how we really want these two tools to come together. How can we make developers work on both, or maybe there’s two Dev teams working on AEM and there’s another one working on commerce? What’s going on here and how can we make it better? That has been my focus from the start of this year. So it’s a very new space for me but like I said, I’ve been talking to Magento developers for quite some time now. So I love this space, I love the community and so I’m happy to help to try to bring it all together now with Adobe.
Guillaume: Are we going to see an integration between AEM and Adobe Commerce, perhaps if the whole content part goes more to AEM and Magento and Adobe Commerce sort of keeps the more transactional side of things? Because it’s always been a bit of a weakness, we do have the Page Builder but it’s always been a bit of a weakness to compensate Magento.
Michael: Yeah. It’s no secret that we’ve really been positioning our PWA Studio as the way we should be doing a Magento storefront from now on. We, of course, want to support everything. If it’s the traditional way of doing it, we’re still going to do that. And that’s definitely the best option for some folks. But if you want to be on that cutting edge, that bleeding edge, PWA Studio, you know, going headless, having React front end is the way to go. AEM has some similar capabilities in this regard but now we have two conflicting ways to do it. So we want to unify that front end. So if you’re making an AEM site, if you’re making a commerce site, you’re going to have one way of doing a front end. And this is kind of our unified front end initiative
that is going to merge those two efforts and hopefully make it easier to manage.
I’ve seen some implementations of sites that have AEM and commerce and all the marketing stuff is AEM which kind of owns the glass. So you click on a product page and the user doesn’t know, but you’re technically going to a different site at that point, which is the Magento site. It looks exactly the same but it’s technically a different front end. So what we’re trying to do is, how can we actually make that the same front end? So that’s really what we’re trying to move for there.
Guillaume: An interesting future especially if there’s not too much overlap between both, because that’s an obvious concern. And I guess for a customer they would have to buy an AEM license in an Adobe commerce license. And then we’ve the combined products.
Michael: Yeah. And you’re talking to the wrong guy when it comes to how we package things up and sell them and licenses. There’s folks that just focus on that. I just want to make sure whatever you buy is going to be a great experience. Whatever Dev shop you use, whether that’s MageMontreal, or somebody in-house or some other great Dev shop that could spin up your site in a good amount of time. I mean, let’s face it, this implementation period is very stressful. You know, there’s investment being made without value being realized and so it’s like, how can we try to make that in a really efficient process for our developers and also merchants being able to realize their value sooner? So that’s my main focus.
Guillaume: That’s a very interesting thing that you’re telling me here. Obviously, everybody knew that Adobe Commerce was getting integrated into the whole Adobe Experience suite. But to which extent, when, which software is integrated first with, was unclear. You guys started with the super low hanging fruit of Adobe Stock, that was kind of an easy one. Just make the photos available, a nice start. But now if you’re saying AEM’s coming, that’s very interesting. And you know which one’s the next. There was a lot of talk in the past about Marketo and Magento, they do e-commerce and try to make the story better together. Is that still being pushed?
Michael: I think there’s still some interesting initiatives going on. I don’t think we have anything I could announce yet but of course, these opportunities are there. We could brainstorm tons of them that make perfect sense. Like you said, stock was just like, let’s just do that and there’s several others like those. But I think it kind of brings me back to this point, we’re kind of in a period of transition like I mentioned, Magento pre-acquisition growth. It’s a kind of integration, that’s a transition for us. So I actually give Adobe a lot of credit for being methodical and intentional in their approach, not rushing out of the gates into trying to just integrate everywhere and make sweeping changes. It’s been a slow, steady evolution. They’ve been really careful about what to prioritize and I think I appreciate that. I think what some folks realize now is that this DX, or this Experience Cloud world, is mostly if not all, a series of acquisitions.
So these disparate products that come together under this umbrella have slowly begun working together. So they have a model, we’re not the first into these groups, they have this model of how to do this. I think they’ve done it really well, it’s just going to take some time and it clearly has taken some time. But, I think what we’re trying to do right now is make Adobe Commerce, the system more easily integrated into any of the products in the Adobe Experience Cloud Suite. So it’s more of a foundational shift than like trying to just bolt on these different connectors. So once we kind of lay the groundwork now we could prioritize, where are these integration points? Which ones are going to be most valuable for our customers? And we could connect to them more easily. I think that’s our main focus right now. It’s just like taking that step back and making sure we can do this more systemically than ad hoc.
Guillaume: Right, I know you could not announce anything but I still had to ask, you know?
Michael: Of course. Well, the good thing is Adobe Summit is right around the corner. Don’t ask me what the dates are, maybe I should have had that ready, but it’s very soon. So you guys will get all the latest announcements soon. So you don’t have to bank on me to give them here, they’re right around the corner.
Guillaume: Yeah, it’s the 15 to the 17th of March, just a few days from now. In the community there was a lot of noise recently about the monolith or the classic Magento versus the PWA, and we cannot not talk about it, it’s sort of the elephant in the room. You mentioned a bit about PWA continuing to support the other models like the classic Magento. I feel we need to talk about it, can we elaborate a little bit on this? Then there was the discussion about the founder of Hyva that was starting a new distribution of Magento that if I understood correctly, would stay in sync with Magento Open Source core and would have a different distribution of things like extensions, or plugins, or what’s enabled or disabled for distribution.
Michael: Magento Open Source is not going anywhere. I know there were some concerns that we were trying to kill Open Source. I’ve never heard conversations internally about that. We are continuing to support Magento Open Source, I think we have a new Open Source foundation, I believe we’re calling it. I think some plans were recently announced that Adobe Developers Live around the contribution model here, perhaps the way developers interacted with Open Source in the past till now is going to change and evolve. But we have a public Open Source roadmap we’re working with the Magento Association and the Open Source Task Force to kind of align on a new contribution model. So things are changing, but we’re still supporting it. We still want to be partner driven, developer driven when it comes to Open Source.
I know when change happens and maybe messaging is a bit ambiguous people tend to fill in the gaps with their imagination. I’m guilty of it thinking about the worst case scenario. Maybe there was a bit of that going on, which I think maybe we could have been a bit more assertive in our messaging out of the gates to calm some of those concerns, but I think a few weeks ago we made some statements on this. So I just want to reaffirm that Open Source is not going anywhere, we’re continuing to support it and so you guys don’t have anything to worry about when it comes to Open Source. It will still be a viable option for whatever you guys are trying to build, if it makes sense.
Guillaume: For example, PWA Studio is available for both the Open Source and the Adobe Commerce version, the paid version of Magento. So I guess that is transition from a monolith so that everything is on one application and going PWA headless, the Progressive Web App headless, are you bringing fully everything that’s Open Source, the whole model with you in that transition and not just the commerce version?
Michael: I think this was announced recently, it’s more of a composable services model that we’re evolving towards. So traditionally, you had core Magento and any updates were built right into that core. Now any sort of new functionality is going to be built as a composable micro service through an API that talks to the core. So this is kind of our new model going forward, so the traditional core Magento is going to be there and stay the same and be running as normal. Any add ons, any new features we create are going to be created as a composable service, and you’re seeing that with our new front end, the PWA Studio. I think another great example of this is our payments product that was just released using this type of architectural model. So, I mean, that’s just a change I think we could get used to. I think the spirit behind it was really to help improve upgrades and upgradeability. So having a lighter core that might have to go through some upgrades and then having your composable services built around that but not built into the core could help with that upgradeability.
We’ve heard some points that it was sometimes challenging to upgrade versions. And again, I think this new architecture will make that easier. Then when it comes to app builder or page builder, when we first released it, it was kind of in an advantageous position, if you want this great new feature you’ve got to pay for it. But we’ve had so much demand and requests for this feature that we can’t keep this behind a paywall anymore, like, people want it so it’s the right thing to do. It’s not really a competitive advantage, it’s just the way the e-commerce market has evolved. It’s like table stakes at this point that we need to keep up with the times and so we need to include it with our Open Source. So that’s why we decided to include it there as well.
Guillaume: Yeah, there’s always a balancing act. Magento is a freemium model so you take the market with a free product, and then a small percentage will upgrade to the paid version. So it’s how much you give into free products so that it’s competitive versus how much you keep behind a paidwall. So it actually makes sense to pay for the paid version. So that it’s a balancing act, it’s not always easy. And you’re right, the Page Builder had to be released because all of their software like WooCommerce and whatnot do have good page builders. And now you’re talking about the publication of the payment service that merchants could use on the Adobe payment platform, which is interesting.
So you’re adding this micro service which gives a more global offering to the merchant, and we can see Shopify doing even more of this. So for example, they’ll have the POS, the Point Of Sale or a Point Of Service, whatever you want to call it, where people can pay in store, for them is sort of a no brainer. Because they go towards this very small merchant who likely has no POS already, Magento being more upmarket, midsize companies and so on. I’ve also seen this being a problem especially in the smaller or midsize market with clients, and it would be fun to have sort of like a pre-approved version provided by Adobe, a more inclusive solution. Is there any future vision of having a more comprehensive, vertical integration of the whole e-commerce stack there, where you’re not only adding a payment system but will also add things like POS or other stuff and branch out some other way? Or do you say no, our core code is this and everybody else just connects to it?
Michael: I think there are opportunities there. I can’t speak to any that are on the table right now. I mean, that’s for product management to figure out what’s going to make us money and what makes sense, the balance between in-house and the ecosystem. But I think, regardless, that model is kind of the future, it’s like, now we have perhaps a lighter core that’s going to be easier to connect to these microservices whether that’s an in-house Adobe service like payments, or some third party service that you go out to find. You just want to facilitate those connections via API easier. That’s really the kind of model that we’re working towards, and I think it is going to be a better experience for developers as well.
Now, you’re not going into the core code and hacking through it and figuring out how to install this thing directly. It’s like, alright, you have this module that works and it sits over here. Now, you just have to kind of manage the way the data transfers through the API and so you could do a lot. And we’re building tooling around that to kind of help manage all these different API connectors that I think users will see that you can do a lot with these sorts of tools without having to dig into core code, which hopefully saves some time and energy from our developers.
Guillaume: For sure it would, because that’s among the things, for example, us as an agency, clients are not necessarily excited to pay a few $1,000, just for a version upgrade. And that’s what’s needed right now because each version is so big, and it can conflict with some previous content or customization. So I personally do like the idea of microservices to only add what you want to add to the next version so that we don’t touch the core and it’s going to make the updates way cheaper for clients. So I believe that we made a great decision there, it’s going to help with the competitive advantage of the platform.
Overall, I’m very much in favor of let’s keep this platform evolving regardless where that is, if it’s more on the the current monolithic stack, but I don’t think it is, we need to upgrade the speed, we need to upgrade a lot of things and we get that to the PWA headless approach, we have the lower cost for updates and so on. Right now the development cost is higher, PWA is at the time of this recording. But that’s probably just because of early technology. I see it more or less as a final, better version right now which is sort of slowly entering its true early commercialization phase.
So the cost will go down because there are more Magento extensions published on the Marketplace and so on. Because right now it’s a concern, there are hundreds and hundreds of extensions that are compatible with the old way of doing things, like classic Magento and very few are compatible with the PWA. So that increases the development cost because you have to make a PWA version of it. But that will change over time, just like when Magento 2 came out versus Magento 1, the first year had almost no extension. So Magento 2 was way more expensive and it took a bit of time before all the extensions were published, and then it just snowballed until you replaced Magento 1.
Michael: Yeah. I think you hit on something important here. We have to keep up with new trends in our industry and continue to modernize. Like the recipe for Magento was really successful and I love the fact that people have built this ecosystem around it. Dev shops, and influencers have found ways to contribute to this big ecosystem and community that I wouldn’t even think of, and they built their livelihoods around it. I’ve seen the passion around it, which is just fantastic. I think when you get something that works so well, like there’s a bit of an apprehension to change. Like, if this works why change it, don’t fix something that’s not broken. I wish we had that luxury. But when it comes to our industry, modern commerce frameworks are changing very rapidly right now. And they’re moving towards this lighter core model by essentially being an easily connected network of API’s, if you will.
So this new architecture that we’re moving towards, is going to support that. I think the primary means for development would potentially move towards interacting with these API’s and these services as opposed to digging into core code. You know we’re leveraging Adobe IO app builder, to build out some tools for developers to help manage all of these API’s and I think it’s going to include some of what I’ve been working on most recently. There’s going to be some exciting announcements here at the Summit around this. But being able to utilize Adobe IO and app builder to help manage all of your API’s and configure them and modify them, all through one system, one tool, one point of entry, I think is going to be really powerful. Hopefully, this will improve implementation, speed and innovation of all the ways our developers extend and implement commerce currently. So I’m excited about that. So keep an eye out for summit announcements around app builder for commerce.
Developers can say, well, I enjoyed the old way of doing things so they wouldn’t want that much. So some people are eager to try the new stuff, some people are more reluctant and want to stay in the comfort zone. There’s definitely some of them going on with that change. We can live it, I support it even though it might be slightly uncomfortable. I do greatly believe we need to keep the platform competitive and keep evolving. So that will mean we change some technology on how it’s built.
Michael: Yeah, 1,000%. This is interesting to know, I ask this question a lot to developers, which model do you prefer? Something that’s more wide open like, here’s the code, you have complete freedom, hack away. Have at it, do what you want with it. Which is great as you have this complete freedom but maybe comes with a high learning curve. I have to really be an expert in what’s going on here to really make meaningful changes or improvements or modifications to this code. Or, as a developer, do you prefer a model where maybe there’s a bit more guardrails in place, maybe you don’t have complete freedom but you have tools that are afforded to you to make those important actions or those important common modifications easier. And what’s interesting is, when I ask this question, the answer I mostly get is, ‘I want both. I want complete freedom but I also want the tools to make my common actions easy’.
What’s interesting and what I think is really fantastic is that we are delivering both. This is what we’re trying to do right now. We are preserving this kind of wide open nature of traditional Magento while building these tools to make development more easy, more efficient, these common things that you’re going to do in every implementation. How can we build tools around it to make those sorts of things easier? Like I said, I think some of the stuff we’re doing with app builder, and at least some of the plans we have for it, I think they are going to help. Those are going to be the tools that I’m talking about here to make some of those things easier. But if you want to still dig into the code and hack away and have that freedom, you will still be able to do that.
Guillaume: You have access to everything?
Guillaume: It reminds me of a software called ZBrush, you had the beginner mode interface when you start and then you could click the advanced mode and have like a ton of buttons that just appeared. That was scary to learn! But you had the beginner mode if you wanted to just start with this. So that can be an interesting thing. Have you noticed any kind of changes in the community or anything like that with the transition from Magento to Adobe?
Michael: Yeah, I wish I could say it’s been a great change like, the community got stronger and blossomed, but it hasn’t been all roses. It’s been challenging. I think that the transition here in the community, we can sense it, we hear that there’s some concern. I think maybe some of it stems from this stigma or this preconception that Adobe, all they care about is their creative. Their Creative Cloud, all they wanted is to focus on the artists and graphic designers. I’m a developer and I wore my Magento logo with a sense of pride and being part of this Open Source community. Now this product is just going to be swallowed up by this big company that only focuses on creatives. I get a sense of this sometimes and it actually made me dig into it more internally like, is this true? And the more digging I did, the more I realized that actually, Adobe has a great developer community.
I think we have about 150-160 Open Source repos, like open source projects going on right now. I learned that Adobe is one of the largest contributors to the Apache Open Source network, we have an Apache Software Foundation. We have strong ties to the PHP Foundation, so the more I dig, the more I see that Adobe has a pretty strong developer community which surprised me and caught me off guard. I asked our Magento community to try to engage with some of these Adobe developers and take a look at what other Open Source projects we have and other ways we’re engaging with Open Source software, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. So I think like I said, maybe there was this preconception. I also think there’s more we can do to calm some of these concerns and reinforce and reaffirm. We love our community and we want you guys to be a part of what we’re doing and drive a lot of what we’re doing. But like I said, we’re in a time of transition so expect things to change, maybe how we work and other nuts and bolts of it. But my personal sentiment and my view is that you guys are our lifeblood here. We love having this ecosystem built around our technology, we want to keep that model. We want to support you guys in your careers. We want Adobe Commerce and Magento to be the driver of your livelihood and your business. We’re going to continue to support that. Don’t think big corporate Adobe with its focus on artists is going to change any of that.
My challenge now is maybe focusing on developer experiences, like, how can I engage with the community a bit more? How can I make sure you guys feel like you’re being heard and actually are being heard? And how can we translate that feedback into tangible product growth? That’s my focus as a UX Designer and that’s how we met Guillaume, through a user research call. I mean, I went for that study, trying to understand the implementation journey a Devshop goes through and what are the friction points? What are those sticking points that slow down the implementation? We just kind of wrapped up our interviews for that study. Now we’re taking all that feedback and boiling it down, and we’re going to work with, depending on the feedback, those teams to make an action plan. We’ll say, these are what users are saying, or this is the problem. Let’s work together and come up with a solution and hold each other accountable to implementing that solution. So I just want to reaffirm that, any feedback you guys give us, especially through the UX team or through UX research gets fed directly into product teams or stakeholder teams that can make an impact in that area.
Guillaume: I was really happy to get an invitation from you guys to go and give you guys some feedback about the product and all that. So that’s fun. You’ve touched a key point here, people can give feedback to Adobe or feel they can be heard. How can you communicate that because that’s very unclear? It’s a bit like you guys outreached to me and then we had a private meeting. Okay, that sounds awesome but not everybody got that invite. So, how can the general developer send an opinion or submit the ideas or contribution or ideas of contribution to Adobe? Sure, there’s GitHub but I mean, more in a way of expressing themselves?
Michael: Yeah. I mean, we have the Slack channel, we monitor that closely. I believe we have some forums as well that are monitored closely. I think there’s a feedback submission tool or module, whatever you want to call it through our Devdocs. As well, if you have an account person or a channel manager or a technical adviser that you guys work with, talk to them. They love to receive feedback, all of that gets funneled into our feedback as well. Feel free to talk to whoever your point person is, and say, ‘I’d love to be part of a study, so keep an eye out for surveys’. I know we’re always issuing our CSAT surveys and these sorts of things. So the channels are out there.
Hopefully, I named at least one that you guys maybe weren’t aware of, but just take the time to look for them and submit what you have. You can even message me on LinkedIn, or direct message me on the Slack channel. There’s someone who’s going to be willing to listen to you. I can’t emphasize that enough. Like, we want to hear from you and there’s only so much we can glean from our social and all these other avenues. But I know as a UX person, recruiting for studies is a bit of a challenge for us as well. So it’s a challenge maybe for you guys to give feedback, it’s a challenge for us to get someone on the line to get feedback from. It’s like both of us want the same thing, you guys want to be heard and we want to hear from you. So I think there’s some channels out there. Let’s leverage these channels as much as we can and make sure we’re communicating.
Guillaume: Yes, it sounds good. Because I believe that’s probably one of the misconceptions there, sometimes one would say, well, nothing new is happening and so on. But if you look at GitHub, the proof is right there. Adobe is contributing an enormous amount of push and so on to Magento Open Source, so proof is right there. I like what Mark Shuster was saying, ‘If you think Adobe is not contributing you live on an island and here’s a screenshot, just go check for yourself the proof is right there’. So I think it was more a question of communication with the community that was perhaps something to work on.
Michael: Yeah, I think that was a learning on our part. I mean, it was kind of like we didn’t say anything that we were changing Open Source. Maybe the messaging we had wasn’t enough but it was in the vein of, we’re going to continue to support Open Source. I think perhaps the community needed more than just messaging, maybe they needed to just see the action behind it. I think that’s a learning on our part, we could take that back and see how we can avoid any missteps like this in the future. I think we have learned that lesson. I think they said there was some really strong messaging after Adobe Developers Live. I think there’s a blog post that our PM Lead Chris Hedge put out, which if you guys are interested in what’s next from a developer experience point or developer tooling point, I think that would be a great thing to reference.
Guillaume: All right, we can put in the link in the episode there. Okay, you brought up some interesting points about the unified front experience for Adobe Experience Manager, AEM, and Adobe Commerce. I look forward to the announcement about Adobe IO app builder, basically from the point of entry. So every Adobe app would funnel basically, they’re taking the standardized way there, then when they allow all the Adobe apps in the Experience Cloud to connect together, that would be the general idea, or listen to the official announcement there and how that stuff works when it’s ready. Anything else you’d like to add for today’s episode?
Michael : I think we covered most of what we had, I just reiterate like, feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn or on our community Slack channel. I want to connect with developers, I want to understand what you guys go through, how we can make your experience better, how we could support you guys better. Then I’m also interested to talk to more AEM developers or Adobe developers, maybe there’s some Devshops that do both. You guys are very interesting to me as well. Again, based on everything we talked about, about this integration phase, I think there’s some interesting things we could learn from what you guys go through, and what your challenges and goals are. So feel free to reach out. Other than that, thanks for having me. This
was a lot of fun.
Guillaume:Thanks for being here, Michael. I appreciate it.
Michael: Yeah. Thanks, Guillaume.